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Author Topic: The Default Doodle Profile Explained  (Read 37770 times)
Egor
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« on: November 02, 2010, 09:04:40 AM »

This post is to explain the playing style of the default profile that comes with the Holdem bot, answer common questions about it, and provide advice for using it profitably.

Text Version Access

At the top of the Working Profiles board (you must be a registered forum member to access that board) are a group of “sticky” posts which stay in that top section. One of these is the thread for the Doodle profile. Post 1 in this thread, that is the very first post, contains the text version of the Doodle profile. You can copy it from there and paste it into notepad and save it for loading into the bot.

Post 1 of the Doodle thread always contains the latest version and older versions are not kept because the profile always improves with the newer versions.

The profile that comes with the bot download is the same profile, but in .ppl format - which means the user cannot access it and it does not quote codelines that are executed in the logs. Therefore if you want to post hand histories from the bot’s session log for suggested improvements, please use the text profile version so I can see what codelines were executed in the actions taken. Also, the text profile may be a newer version than the .ppl version, although these periods where they are different versions are usually short.

MTT Version

Also in that batch of sticky posts is a free “MTT Kit” that I created. This is a short text profile that is designed to manage your stack well in tournaments as it grows and shrinks. It can be combined with any cash game profile, such as the Doodle, by blending the individual betting round codes as instructed in the first post on that thread. It can also be used as an entire text profile at the same time that you have a .ppl profile loaded, which will have the same net effect as blending it on a text profile (except that only the codelines from the kit will be quoted in the logs).

I always blend the MTT Kit with the Doodle and post the blended text profile at the end of the MTT Kit thread when I post the latest Doodle profile. You can access this text profile by going to the end of the MTT Kit thread and start looking backwards until you find my most recent post of the “Mtt Kit + Doodle”.

History

When we first added post-flop PPL variables I made a post in the forum titled “flop doodle” just to demonstrate some of the creative possible uses with the new variables, such as check-raising and slow-playing big hands from early position. A few people started using it and reporting good results and posting suggestions for improvements. I also I started making “doodle” posts for the Turn and River. It just kind of grew from there and eventually I combined them all with a good preflop code I was working on and the rest is history (you can read the entire Doodle thread if you want to read that history).

At last count there were over 200 pages on the Doodle thread. Most of the improvements are the result of our members posting hand histories from the bot’s session log showing where play can be improved. So it really is a true community project, although I decide on what suggestions get implemented. These have gotten to be few and far between these days, so the new versions are a lot slower in coming now.

Playing Style

The Doodle profile plays a solid, classic tight-aggressive style (also known as TAG) for No Limit Holdem. This means that it plays tight and folds most hands preflop. When it does play, it is usually the aggressor in the hand, raising to open and betting when given the chance. This gives it two ways to win. It can make a hand or the opponents can all fold to the bets. Most serious professional online players play a TAG style. It does, of course, back down when an opponent gets stubborn about sticking around when the bot does not have a strong hand.

Some of our members who have run it for more than 100,000 hands have posted stats from Poker Tracker or Holdem Manager and they are classic TAG stats. This is simply not debatable because the stats don’t lie.

Preflop Raising

The number one complaint that I get from newbies using this profile is they see it making min-raises preflop in some situations and don’t like it. The reason they don’t like it is because they watch too much TV-Poker and nobody ever raises the minimum on television. Also, somewhere sometime somebody wrote that “the correct” preflop raise size is 3.5 times the big blind or some such nonsense. So they have just enough knowledge to be dangerous and figure they have to change this profile to make pot-sized preflop raises, or a 300% raise, or whatever ridiculous notion they got stuck in their mind as what they “always” should do (very few things in poker are actually an “always”).

That notion about never min-raising preflop is based on a limited knowledge about poker in general, and more importantly a lack in understanding of the formula that this profile is designed to use. I can guarantee that I have been playing longer, and more successfully, than most of the people who worry about the Doodle’s preflop min-raising.

The fact is that this profile does also make many pot-sized preflop raises. When it min-raises it does so because I think it is best move from a risk-reward standpoint in that particular situation. This especially takes into account the flop-continuation betting code that is being used.

The preflop betting pattern is not predictable because sometimes it also min-raises with AA and KK. Your opponents only need to see that once before they start giving your min-raises some respect.

Flop-Continuation Betting

The other common complaint I get is that the standard flop continuation bet is pot-sized and some people don’t like that. They want to make it something like 70% of the pot. This actually makes some sense, because if they are making large raises preflop then they have a real problem with the bet-size on a flop-continuation bet. The pot has gotten too big and is now out of their control. So it is consistent with a philosophy of making larger preflop raises to make smaller flop-continuation bets.

What I am here to tell you is that I tried it both ways and looked at the numbers nine ways from Sunday. And I have come to the conclusion that you are better off in the long run making smaller preflop raises (with marginal raising hands), and larger sized flop-continuation bets. This is for two reasons. The first is that people still fold to min-raises preflop without decent hands, and that is what they hold most of the time. So if you raise from the cutoff when everybody folds to you with JT it is likely to be just you and the big blind on the flop, and many times the big blind will fold to the preflop min-raise anyway.

On the flop the pot will be small if he does call. So a pot-sized bet will be a strong-looking bet and he has to fold if he didn’t flop a decent hand, which is most of the time. But the pot is small enough to make that strong bet not too expensive.

Here is the second reason: If you raised the pot preflop with that JT instead, a pot-sized bet becomes too expense and testing has shown that you will not do as well in the long run. If instead you make a 70% of pot-sized bet, well that just looks weaker and will inspire some opponents to play back at you with nothing, or "float" you with a call for their weak pair.

It makes sense either way but the philosophy should be consistent. If your preflop steal-raises are pot-sized then yes a 70% of pot bet, or even smaller like 60%, is necessary. However if your preflop steal-raises are just min-raises then you can afford to make the strong pot-sized continuation bet. I have tried it both ways in my poker career and I have arrived at the conclusion that min-sized steal raises followed by pot-sized continuation bets just work better overall (for one thing you can widen your stealing range). And since the Doodle is my profile, that is how it plays.

Best Games

The Doodle plays more aggressive as the table gets short-handed. Therefore it should be fine at 6-max tables if that is your thing. You will clear bonuses faster and rack up rakeback a lot quicker in 6-max.

However, that is the logical equivalent of paying more in taxes so your refund will be bigger. You only get a % of it back, so paying more and getting more back is always net worse than paying less in the first place. Traditionally a TAG player does better at full 9-max tables because the cost of sitting there is less. The blinds come around less frequently and there are more players to split of the cost of the rake.

That does not mean you should sit out when the table gets short! I do not recommend that. The text version of the profile is set to never sit out. There is quite a bit of short-handed and heads-up code in the profile and it usually holds it’s own when the table gets short. I have even seen the Doodle break aggressive players when playing heads up. Yes your variance will be higher and the cost to play increases. Don’t let that scare you. Overall it is better to never sit out because the tables will usually only fill back up if the existing players are playing.

Stakes are another matter. The lower stakes games are of course easier to beat than higher stakes games. Table selection tactics will of course find more profitable games then blindly joining any table. Playing at night when people are drinking will of course yield better results than the daytime when the room is full of regulars. A TAG player generally wants a loose, passive table so keep that in mind. That means lots of people calling before the flop and not a lot of preflop and flop raises from your opponents. Play at the right times, in the best games, and this profile should do fine as high as 25NL.

Results

There are unsolicited graphs posted in the personal journals section confirming that this profile is beating the lower stakes games handily. Here are links to two of the graph images:

169,000+ hands at NL2 (includes rakeback on the blue line):

http://a.imageshack.us/img248/7704/165kgraph.png

89,000+ hands at NL5 (does not include bonus cleared or rakeback earned):

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6580/11thgraph.gif


Please note that a graph with less than 50,000 hands is of questionable value and it really takes 100,000 hands to get a reliable depiction of performance. This is because there are occasional 12,000+ hand downswings on any winning profile. So graphs with less than 10,000 hands are pretty much a joke.

You can use the Doodle at NL10 to clear any deposit bonus and expect to get at least 2/3 of it as profit, assuming you have the time to clear it. True, you can get all of it as profit (plus some profit from playing to boot) by playing NL5 or lower but it will take a lot longer. And time is money.

At Bodog this profile will beat NL25, especially at night USA time when the sports bettors are in the poker room. It will also perform well in any environment where a typical good TAG player has an edge.

When the jackpot gets over $400K at UB this profile does well in the NL50 and even some of the NL100 jackpot games.

Modifying the Profile

You are of course welcome to take the text version of the Doodle and tweak it to your liking. Heck you can do whatever you want with it, mess with the option settings, add new codeblocks, make it raise max with 72 of clubs, or print it out and wrap fish with it. I think it makes an excellent base to start from.

Perhaps the easiest way to do this is to watch the profile play and take good notes. Give the PPL Guide a read. Then start adding 1-liner code commands to the top of the betting rounds which will change specific situations that you want played differently in the future. Before you know it you will have your own profile. Who knows, you might just create a killer NL50 profile that can make your house payment. Good luck with it.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:08:21 PM by Egor » Logged

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Ubernewb
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 05:42:15 AM »

IMHO most players could learn from this profile if they would just sit and watch. It makes some errors as does Phil Ivey, but it plays a VERY solid TAG and does well in almost any situation. The first time I ever used it on RedStar in a $25 freeroll.....got third in a 1000 field. It got insanely aggressive when a lot of players were sitting out. I was LMAO watching it bluff with nada against one or two players playing while the rest sat out. Variance hurt it far more than it helped the lil magic doodle, but it grabbed 3rd.

I put it in a $2NHL Double-up and it finished 6th without making any real mistakes. Moved in with QQ against AKos and AKos hit an A.....that is poker. It was definitely worth the $2 just watching it play. I put my lil doodle buddy on 2 .02-.04 cent tables and it averaged just over a dollar an hour profit on each table. For a FREE profile, you can't pregnant dog about those results.
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jbj81
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 01:29:01 PM »

I have to comment on this now that i'm botting with Doodle after loads of different own profiles. There is a lot of little things in Doodle that makes me think "was that good or bad play" and i prefer not to tweak it too much because it alters the whole gameplay balance witch is pretty good in Doodle. One thing that comes to my mind is slowplay/trapping after flop. There is a situations when i'd prefer check-raise or calling flop and turn. Doodle plays certain very strong hands way too aggressively. When you think this through there might be a point to play it aggressively: if you play constantly aggressively and success on buying pots, opponents have a hard time to read when you have a monster hand and when only mediacore or playable hand.

I'm adding slowplay moves in Doodle text version and see how it goes.

Any comments Egor?
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Egor
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 05:33:28 PM »

It's going to look suspicious when you don't make your usual flop continuation bet if you only don't do it when you flopped a big hand. You could kill your action that way.
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jbj81
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 06:07:44 PM »

That is one of the concerns. How often Doodle makes CBet on flop? I know it does it a lot, im sure it wont do it all the time, only when have something, right? And im talking slowplaying really good hands, when your chances to win are huge.
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Egor
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 06:42:39 PM »

Doodle always makes a flop C-bet when it was the last preflop aggressor. Very important for not becoming readable.
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jbj81
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 07:09:46 PM »

Doodle always makes a flop C-bet when it was the last preflop aggressor. Very important for not becoming readable.
Oh, nice. Did not know that. What about slowplaying rarely when you got well disquised hand like set? Opponents cant read did you hit a set or missed flop compleatly. And when you get caught slowplaying it might reduce bets against you when you dont have anything, check and hope for good turn/river card.

It would be nice to have list of key gamplay strategies/moves from Doodle. For example your comment above. Just simple list of oneliners so you understand Doodle better.
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jbj81
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2013, 10:27:51 PM »

Im analyzing my sessions and another thing comes up repeatedly. I filter my hands with flop hand value "secont top pair" and Doodle calls bets way too loosely in my opinion. The Cbets i understand but when Doodle checks and faces a bet on next betting round it should fold. Its almost always against the top pair and wins only when hitting two pair or better. Im currently losing -30bb/100 hands with this filter. Then again i dont have enough hands to make good analyze for this situation but it does not look good. I know it can ruin the balance if i tighten it up here. I just wanted to point this out if someone have comments about it. I probably wont tweak Doodle at all, i just write custom profile and change between profiles every 60 minutes or so. I think that is the key for more profit.

Never the less, excellent job Egor! Doodle is impressive.  bowdown
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Egor
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 10:36:50 PM »

Doodle always gives up on the Turn after a C-bet if it doesn't have a good hand or a good draw - unless the bet size is small in relationship to the pot, in which case calling is correct. This is beginning to get off-topic. post any questionable plays from the bot's log on the Doodle thread, please.

 thanks
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jbj81
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 10:51:27 PM »

I see this scenario all the time and i think its not profitable in the long run:

On flop Doodle bets from first position with top pair and gets raised -> Doodle calls.
Now on turn Doodle opens with a bet? Its almost always against two pair or set. And i think its not just with top pair. When you get raised on flop i think you should re-raise if hand is strong enough or fold/call and check on turn. Call raise on flop and open turn with bet sounds odd.
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Egor
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 12:14:46 AM »

I like calling the flop-raise and betting the Turn because it defines your hand. If you get raised again you can safely fold all 1-pair hands. This is the cheapest way to play your losing 1-pair hands in my opinion, and it prevents the opponent from checking behind on the Turn to get a free card.

Re-raising the flop will usually pot-commit you, and check-calling the turn and river is much more expensive than calling the flop raise and betting the turn (and folding if raised).

If you knew for certain you were beat most of the time you get flop-raised, you could fold all your top-pair hands to a flop raise and this would be the best solution of all - but of course, this isn't the case. I like my solution best.

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bottech
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 07:54:22 AM »

Hi new guy here,

Iv'e been getting some decent results with doodle 104 over 5000 hands so far. Quick question. I notice it seems to under value top pair good kicker it will check it a ton more then it should IMO. I could be way off base on this.

Thanks

The FNG
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Egor
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 08:08:42 AM »

I'm interested in seeing hands from the bot's session log of those instances.

 thanks
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gst919
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2014, 06:11:13 PM »

Hi guys, i have recently re purchased the license and i am testing the new doodle profile. I have read that you not recommend sit out if the table gets short handed, so the bot should be set in "sit out options when opponents are less than" to 1? cause the bot comes with the option "sit out when opponents are less than 6". Thanks!
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Egor
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2014, 11:14:41 PM »

I don't recommend it. Better to keep playing, as the table will eventually fill back up that way.
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Zerhuli
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 11:47:47 AM »

Why does the profile limp so often? For example K T suited.
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Egor
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2014, 02:28:53 PM »

The Doodle rarely limps. Usually it folds or raises. There are a minority of hands which it limps with, however, including KT from middle position. Can't see raising with it from middle position as the hand is just too weak. But is has enough value for a call to try and see a cheap flop IMO. It won't call a raise. If it flops a pair, therefore, it has a good chance of being the best hand on the flop.
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Zerhuli
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2014, 02:38:38 PM »

The Doodle rarely limps. Usually it folds or raises. There are a minority of hands which it limps with, however, including KT from middle position. Can't see raising with it from middle position as the hand is just too weak. But is has enough value for a call to try and see a cheap flop IMO. It won't call a raise. If it flops a pair, therefore, it has a good chance of being the best hand on the flop.

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.
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Zwetschke
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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2015, 10:01:06 PM »

What profile in the "working profiles" section do you like more Egor, the Wildbill (50BB) or the normal doodle?

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Egor
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2015, 06:13:43 AM »

Wild bill is for 6 max while the Doodle is for 9 or 10 max tables

I usually do 6 max when I play cash games these days
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Please do not PM me about license issues or help stuff - email me or use the Help board. Thanks! -Egor
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