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rfh2007
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« on: June 10, 2017, 01:46:29 PM »

Yesterday I was playing with one of my profiles.

I have done pretty well with this over last week or so. I went through hand logs and saw some "weird things" (lol).

One of those was that I had AA and was starting to get a bit short stacked.
So the profile shoved all in with AA from middle position. Everyone else folded, so my AA, won a few chips and I only improved my position in MTT a few places.

I have a pretty aggressive push/fold code when Stack drops below 20BBs. But, I thought that some of the other players were starting to work me out.

So I added this to top of push/fold code:

When (Hand = AA or hand = KK) and stacksize <= 20 raisemax force
When (Hand = AA or hand = KK) and stacksize > 21 Call Force

So not much happened for another 20 or so hands. I was still in the middle of the pack.
Then I got KK and was in middle position with about 30 BBs in my stack. There were a few small raises before me, so I called them.
(Normally my preflop could would shove a big raise)
So the flop was 9,T,2.
So, Dude No. 1 had a pair of tens and raised all in. Everyone else folded.
So I dropped my KK on top of him. The river and turn gave him nothing.
That was a big pot and put me into top 10.
I guess that if he cracked a ten on river or turn I would be dead.

So I guess what I did was slow play the KK.

Comments please....is this a good or bad thing?










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whir
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 04:40:10 PM »

It really depends on what your shoving range is. If it is extremely tight, say AQs+ then slowplaying your boss hands should get you more action.

If you have a much wider shove range when short-stacked, you may be losing an opportunity to stack an opponent who thinks you might be pushing ATs and calls your Kings.

Either way however, I would not slowplay those hands 100% of the time. 25% slowplaying boss hands would be about the max for me.

Good luck with your experiment moving forward!!!
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ykcip75
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2017, 12:40:43 AM »

Yesterday I was playing with one of my profiles.

I have done pretty well with this over last week or so. I went through hand logs and saw some "weird things" (lol).

One of those was that I had AA and was starting to get a bit short stacked.
So the profile shoved all in with AA from middle position. Everyone else folded, so my AA, won a few chips and I only improved my position in MTT a few places.

I have a pretty aggressive push/fold code when Stack drops below 20BBs. But, I thought that some of the other players were starting to work me out.

So I added this to top of push/fold code:

When (Hand = AA or hand = KK) and stacksize <= 20 raisemax force
When (Hand = AA or hand = KK) and stacksize > 21 Call Force

So not much happened for another 20 or so hands. I was still in the middle of the pack.
Then I got KK and was in middle position with about 30 BBs in my stack. There were a few small raises before me, so I called them.
(Normally my preflop could would shove a big raise)
So the flop was 9,T,2.
So, Dude No. 1 had a pair of tens and raised all in. Everyone else folded.
So I dropped my KK on top of him. The river and turn gave him nothing.
That was a big pot and put me into top 10.
I guess that if he cracked a ten on river or turn I would be dead.

So I guess what I did was slow play the KK.

Comments please....is this a good or bad thing?












By Slow playing AA or KK you will win bigger pots and huge pots against players ready to go all-in with the top pair or overpairs below your pair but beware you will lose more often with AA or KK as you give the opportunity to your opponents to get two pairs,sets,trips,straights,flushes on hands they would have normally folded if you showed agression. Also you can be on bad situations where your AA or KK has been called by too many opponents reducing too much your odds to win.Also do not forget when you slowplay KK about 25% of time an Ace will be on the board.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 08:47:35 AM by ykcip75 » Logged
vnsmalley
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2017, 06:37:46 PM »

I have done lousy with tournaments and have used several I purchased and egors with poor or bad results.  Would appreciate your advice or suggestions please .  Vic Smalley    vicsvalues@outlook.com    vnsmalley
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rfh2007
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2017, 01:36:13 AM »

Hi Guys,

Just to report back on my "Experiment".

First, thanks YK and whir for your comments. I understand what you are both saying and accept that.

Yesterday I played 207 hands on ACR (in an MTT) and never got AA or KK once! I switched to Titan and played about 200 hands there, again in an MTT, and didn't ever see AA or KK !!

So, the "experiment" never got a chance to activate! Bad luck, variance, call it what you like.

However, it never surprises me with rubbish that people play with. Last night on Titan, for example, some clown has shoved a big raise with 78o....and wait for it.....this was the 3rd hand of a deep stacked MTT. He got smashed as it turned by KK. But what he did was to cause everyone else to fold apart from the dude with the KK. I don't know what  to call that move...stupidity, a bluff, drunkenness, moroness (is that a word?) buy anyway !

I have now spent nearly 2 hours going over the bot logs and comparing them to the actual graphic replays on ACR and Titan. All I can say is that some players deserve to be cleaned up big time with the rubbish that they throw at you.

So I am going to make a new profile.

Its going to be something like this:
It wont depend on stack size, table position etc....

Any suited cards....All In
Unsuited connectors.... All In
Anything with an A or K in it.....All In

 I am joking of course, but I have seen these hands played in the early stages of an MTT and this was only from yesterday.

If only the AA or KK came up just once !!!!!!!!











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rfh2007
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2017, 04:29:51 PM »

My first AA !


Shanky Technologies Holdem Version 8.5.2: Hand: Ah Ac
Players = 7 have AA
Raise
hands played in session = 32
in timer: players = 7, folds in game= 4, raises = 0, checks = 0, calls = 3, bets = 0, folds = 4
casino = XXX 9 Max, No Limit Tourny, BB = 200.00, Pot = 4 BBs, Stack = 13874.00, TI = 1 BBs
Amount To Call = 0 BBs
In Big Blind
Matching user defined condition at line 76, Action = call force
click Check
Flop: Jh 2s 5s
Board: 2 suits no possible straight
have overpair
in timer: players = 7, folds in game= 4, raises = 0, checks = 1, calls = 0, bets = 0, folds = 0
casino = xxx 9 Max, No Limit Tourny, BB = 200.00, Pot = 4 BBs, Stack = 13874.00, TI = 1 BBs
Amount To Call = 0 BBs
opponents = 3, position = middle
Raise if no raises
Matching user defined condition at line 2094, Action = raise 3 force
Bet/Raise 600
click Bet
Turn: Jh 2s 5s Ts
Board: No Pair possible flush three of one suit, including possible straights needing two cards
have overpair
also no straight possible
in timer: players = 7, folds in game= 6, raises = 0, checks = 0, calls = 0, bets = 0, folds = 0
casino = Titan 9 Max, No Limit Tourny, BB = 200.00, Pot = 12 BBs, Stack = 13074.00, TI = 5 BBs
Amount To Call = 0 BBs
opponents = 1, position = first
Bet
Matching user defined condition at line 8035, Action = raise 9 force
Bet/Raise 1800
click Bet
River: Jh 2s 5s Ts Tc
Board: Pair possible flush three of one suit (possible straight or not)
have overpair
in timer: players = 7, folds in game= 6, raises = 0, checks = 0, calls = 0, bets = 0, folds = 0
casino = Titan 9 Max, No Limit Tourny, BB = 200.00, Pot = 36 BBs, Stack = 10674.00, TI = 17 BBs
Amount To Call = 0 BBs
opponents = 1, position = first
Play if no raise
Matching user defined condition at line 10461, Action = raise 50% force
Bet/Raise 3600
click Bet.

Anyway I won that!  I could have crashed out with  that too.

But the AA came up a few times after that (would u believe)....and it smashed them playing the same strategy.

But, the good part......I won the MTT  !!!   209 players or so.

What was funny though...when I had AA and called...then smacked them, was that they treated  me with great suspicion.

So from then on when I called, they mostly folded.....

But when my  shove/ fold profile  came into action.....at this stage it was down to the last 10......I shoved KJ.....everyone folded.

So the next hand was AA,,,and I shoved All In.....end of story.

So maybe I was lucky?




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kellypkelly
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 11:32:14 AM »

Quote
I won the MTT  !!!   209 players or so.
Well done! Would you have continued the hand differently if you had more calls on the flop?


Hi Vic have you watched play and checked logs for mis clicks etc?
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rfh2007
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 02:16:28 AM »

Hi Kelly,

No I don't think so. It was was always going to do that.

Having said that, a few nights ago it did much the same thing. Caught AA from a late position and called the highest bet.
The flop came and for the life of me couldn't see what would beat my AA.
So gave it a bit of a shove and got called. Everyone else folded, apart from one.
The turn, nothing that I could see that was obvious.
So Checked.
The River was something like a 3d.
Still  couldn't see what was going to beat me. The board was full of rubbish !
This time I gave a another shove and got called.

So this clowns hole cards were 6d and  9d and he has actually played them. But the 3d on the river gave him a flush...something I never saw coming
But I think even if I had gone all in this clown would have called anyway.

Now this is a dude I have encountered a few times before. Absolute idiot! Last time I came across him was in an R&A MTT.
He has shoved all in on the first hand of the MTT...so go figure. Every hand after that he shoved all in. Eventually he got busted, so he has a double re-buy and then continues shoving all in with every hand. I lost count of the number of re-buys he had, but would have been at least 10!

So how do you play against that?

And I should add, this was in the very early stage of the MTT. I might understand it if it was late stage and he was short stacked.
But for the moment, I am not changing much.





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kellypkelly
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 10:41:23 AM »

Annoying, lol I think I met the same clown last night R&A also, I open raised 5 BB with KK, a guy behind pushed 40BB, another went all-in with 60BB, I had 80BB and called. The guy that pushed 40BB beat me with 9h 3h, fortunately I took the side against TT from the other player so came out ok!
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ykcip75
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Karma: 70
Posts: 401


Shanky Bonus Bots Rock!


« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 01:10:22 PM »

Hi Guys,

Just to report back on my "Experiment".

First, thanks YK and whir for your comments. I understand what you are both saying and accept that.

Yesterday I played 207 hands on ACR (in an MTT) and never got AA or KK once! I switched to Titan and played about 200 hands there, again in an MTT, and didn't ever see AA or KK !!

So, the "experiment" never got a chance to activate! Bad luck, variance, call it what you like.

However, it never surprises me with rubbish that people play with. Last night on Titan, for example, some clown has shoved a big raise with 78o....and wait for it.....this was the 3rd hand of a deep stacked MTT. He got smashed as it turned by KK. But what he did was to cause everyone else to fold apart from the dude with the KK. I don't know what  to call that move...stupidity, a bluff, drunkenness, moroness (is that a word?) buy anyway !

I have now spent nearly 2 hours going over the bot logs and comparing them to the actual graphic replays on ACR and Titan. All I can say is that some players deserve to be cleaned up big time with the rubbish that they throw at you.

So I am going to make a new profile.

Its going to be something like this:
It wont depend on stack size, table position etc....

Any suited cards....All In
Unsuited connectors.... All In
Anything with an A or K in it.....All In

 I am joking of course, but I have seen these hands played in the early stages of an MTT and this was only from yesterday.

If only the AA or KK came up just once !!!!!!!!













you odds of getting AA or KK is 2 out of 169 hands so it's normal they don't come up often.
Also on some MTT the dealer will be there to remind you about 75% of starting hands aren't good starting hands and you will be dealt only not good cards and you'll have to learn to deal with these situations.
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kellypkelly
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Posts: 93



« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 02:52:13 PM »

Sometimes we have to play bad hands, when I do I'm usually pushing short stack or checking blind.

For the most part if I am under top 25% I use 'extra outs'

Quote from: Sklansky Extra Outs
When deciding whether to play a marginal hand for at least one more card in seven-card stud or hold'em, the good player's final decision may hinge on whether he has "extra outs."

My extra extra out < 25% is 'fold that'!

Simples... Good hands win bad hands lose ;)

Quote
moroness (is that a word?)
No that is not a word if you were my student in English class I would have to chastise you rfh, spank, spank... But hey maybe it should be a word! Seriously I think players like that are arrogant and egotistical, they try to create a strong image early and hope to rely on it through out the game, they have heard in beginner poker classes that aggressive poker is good poker, they confuse aggression with bluffing and bullying, hey they feed the poker eco system we welcome them! But we still whinge when they suck out!
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rfh2007
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 03:43:24 PM »

Hi YK,

Never see any messages from dealer on Titan or ACR.....so what's that all about?

Last night I shoved with AK ((late stage) and got done with AQ..of course the Q turned up on the river. So that was a paid profile talking...and I get that and have no problems with it.

So I get what you are saying. But, when  it comes up it usually pays off big time.

So  are there any profiles out there that won't shove AA or KK?

I have looked through all my profiles ( mostly paid ones ) and can't see where AA or KK wouldn't be shoved.

My point is though...if I have AA...I call the highest bet, rather than shove.

So I havn't committed a big pile of chips at this point.

So with AA I probably have the best hand.

Now, depending on the flop. If it's crap...then I shove the AA.

But, if there is any way of a possible flush, straight , trips etc....it would probably fold or maybe call.

But, one hand last night I caught the AA...and called the highest bet.

So the flop was AQ7... So I had AAA and that was never going to be beaten.
That hand pulled all the chips from the pot. It took me from 17th position to 2nd.

So I guess the question is...if I had AA and shoved all in...what would I have ended up with...probably the pot.

And that probably would move me up u few places in the MTT.

But I have given the opposition some idea of how I play with the AA if I shoved it.....but only calling with it is confusing.


So, my thoughts, confuse your opposition.
'

But then again,  I could possibly be insane!!







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kellypkelly
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 08:46:22 PM »

Please excuse me rfh, I was being light hearted and having some fun I never intended to offend or arouse you in anger in any way, in actual fact I agree with you...

Sorry for writing i wont bother you again...
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rfh2007
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 12:45:44 AM »

Geez Kelly,
 I can't even see where you offended or angered me...

But, I have been known to suffer bouts of moroness...lol

Hmmmm..spell checker thinks that moroness is not a word...
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ykcip75
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 09:28:14 AM »

Hi YK,

Never see any messages from dealer on Titan or ACR.....so what's that all about?

Last night I shoved with AK ((late stage) and got done with AQ..of course the Q turned up on the river. So that was a paid profile talking...and I get that and have no problems with it.

So I get what you are saying. But, when  it comes up it usually pays off big time.

So  are there any profiles out there that won't shove AA or KK?

I have looked through all my profiles ( mostly paid ones ) and can't see where AA or KK wouldn't be shoved.

My point is though...if I have AA...I call the highest bet, rather than shove.

So I havn't committed a big pile of chips at this point.

So with AA I probably have the best hand.

Now, depending on the flop. If it's crap...then I shove the AA.

But, if there is any way of a possible flush, straight , trips etc....it would probably fold or maybe call.

But, one hand last night I caught the AA...and called the highest bet.

So the flop was AQ7... So I had AAA and that was never going to be beaten.
That hand pulled all the chips from the pot. It took me from 17th position to 2nd.

So I guess the question is...if I had AA and shoved all in...what would I have ended up with...probably the pot.

And that probably would move me up u few places in the MTT.

But I have given the opposition some idea of how I play with the AA if I shoved it.....but only calling with it is confusing.


So, my thoughts, confuse your opposition.
'

But then again,  I could possibly be insane!!









What I was meaning is on some tourneys the dealer will only deal bad cards to you.
Once I played a tourney 300 hands and the best cards I got was 1 AK 2 QQ 1 JJ 1 AQ the rest was marginal or trash...
I can't complain because there are way more bad starting hands than good starting hands so mathematics are speaking there and we have to deal with it.

About your AA I don't say that calling with it is a bad idea It's has proven to be effective on many games and on your experiment also, but It's preflop that you have the best of odds of winning against a random hand. Postflop unless you hit an Ace and the board is not to terrible your odds of winning against a hand you don't know will never be higher.
When you have AA you want to have few opponents against 1 or 2 ideally not more so calling the last raise is a good idea because your opponents will never suspect you have AA.
If you won't get many calls behind you so the raise amount must be significant enough to make others players fold probably 3BB or more
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rfh2007
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 03:34:23 PM »

Hi Yk,

Yep I know what your saying.

So here is a hand from last night that killed me.

I had 77...and called from late position.

So the flop was  K72.....which gave me 777.....now what could go wrong from here? Well I made a big shove..lol

Well what went wrong was the dude with KK had slow played me and had KKK

So, goodbye me !!
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ykcip75
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 08:01:10 PM »

Hi Yk,

Yep I know what your saying.

So here is a hand from last night that killed me.

I had 77...and called from late position.

So the flop was  K72.....which gave me 777.....now what could go wrong from here? Well I made a big shove..lol

Well what went wrong was the dude with KK had slow played me and had KKK

So, goodbye me !!

You could have avoided this if you raised your 77.
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rfh2007
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2017, 12:41:32 PM »

So what your saying is that I should have shoved 77?

I have no doubt the dude with KK would have shoved back.

This is in early stage of MTT as well.

So to quote this from Lion MTT Restored:

when hand = 77
  when BotsLastAction = Raise and Raises >= 1 and Calls >= 0 and AmountToCall < 15% StackSize Call Force
  when BotsLastAction = Raise and Raises = 1 and OpponentIsAllIn and Opponents = 1 and AmountToCall <= 15% StackSize Call Force
  when StackSize > 22 and raises = 0 and StillToAct < 7 call force
  when StackSize > 22 and raises = 0 and calls >= 3 call force
  when (In BigBlind or In SmallBlind) and raises >= 1 and (AmountToCall < 3 or AmountToCall < 5% StackSize) call force
  when StackSize >= 40 and Raises >= 1 and (AmountToCall < 6% StackSize or AmountToCall < 5) call force
  when StackSize >= 30 and Raises >= 1 and (AmountToCall < 6% StackSize or AmountToCall < 4) call force
  when StackSize >= 22 and Raises >= 1 and (AmountToCall < 6% StackSize or AmountToCall < 3) call force

Am I missing something here?

Cheers

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kellypkelly
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« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2017, 02:37:49 PM »

Quote
Geez Kelly,
 I can't even see where you offended or angered me...
Aww I thought I spanked too hard lol ;)

The low pair 77 was either fold or call one is as good as the other in late position (stack permitting), your play was good, you can't fold that hand on the flop, sure sometimes you lose but according to mathematics of probability you win often enough that it pays overall.
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ykcip75
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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2017, 09:56:33 PM »

Early stage you are screwed.
But middle/Late stage by preflop raising your 77 you get the info and even if the opponent decide keep the slowplay by calling your raise Aces are on your side to make a scary bet postflop.
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