Shanky Technologies Poker Bot Support Forum

General Category => Discussion Board => Topic started by: SharkHunter on March 14, 2011, 04:24:30 PM



Title: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: SharkHunter on March 14, 2011, 04:24:30 PM
Anyone else see the article on poker bots in the new york times?


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: HeyC on March 14, 2011, 04:33:41 PM
Can you insert the link so that i can read it?


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: PokerMad on March 14, 2011, 05:07:43 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/science/14poker.html?_r=1


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: henkc12 on March 14, 2011, 05:16:08 PM
Good for shanky no good for us?


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Doomtrain on March 14, 2011, 06:50:02 PM
Quote
We don’t think the other poker rooms we support will make a similar financial decision

Thats a bit of a unneccesary red flag to the bull, but in general a very nice article for shanky. Its very level not point of view based and should bring in a fair number of new guys, i shudder to think how many people that paper reaches.

The best kind of advertising you just cant buy imo.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Egor on March 14, 2011, 07:09:10 PM
I guess that guy ended up being for real.

His statement internet gambling is illegal in the United States is 100% incorrect however. There is no federal internet gambling law that applies to individuals or gambling, only a law that applies to banks making transfers back and forth to such sites. There are however, laws in some states that ban internet gambling (11 the last time I counted, all of the states that have large land-based casino businesses of course).


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: uplander on March 14, 2011, 07:38:58 PM
A representative of one of the rooms says that 90% of bots are losing money.

Egor, do you think thats propaganda, to reassure manual players, or about right?

I suppose they don't really know because a lot of people, like me, use the bot and play manually, depending on their mood.

They might well have said '98% of players at our site are losing money. The rake means nearly everyone is drawing dead. I've just bought another Ferrari'.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Egor on March 14, 2011, 07:52:55 PM
Well of course the poker room guy is going to say that to a newspaper reporter.

What they won't say, of course, is that 90% of everybody is losing money - at cash games anyway, which is no doubt what he is referring to anyway. Bot, human, makes no difference. The rake is simply too high. But that bit of truth wouldn't be good PR....


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Doomtrain on March 14, 2011, 08:06:50 PM
I would imagine the % of bots winning is actually considerably higher than the % of humans winning.
The number one reason for this would obviously be lots of humans with a winning game cant control tilt so only ever lose, bots dont have this problem if the bot has a winning game then the only thing that could turn it into a loser is bad mechanical performance.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: uplander on March 14, 2011, 08:36:42 PM
Egor/Doom, I agree.

Have either of you ever had any aspirations towards starting your own poker rooms? Rooms that were publicly supportive of botting? I know that the set up costs, for a genuinely secure site would be high.

Do you think there is a viable alternative to rake, in terms of a room generating revenue. I am aware that WSX tried offering rake free poker and it didn't get off the ground.

I like the idea of a room offering rake free games and just charging 10% commssion on withdrawals. That would give a lot more people a chance and the company would still have another revenue stream - bank interest on the deposits.

(Now putting on tin hat and taking cover, in anticipation of a less than enthusiastic response to this idea).

 ;D


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Egor on March 14, 2011, 08:40:35 PM
that would be an interesting business model - would require non-greedy operators however, maybe avid poker players themselves

main problem is it would attract pros and not fish, as fish have no concept of the rake


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Boost on March 14, 2011, 09:06:11 PM
I can't see how a poker room could condemn pokerbots and expect it too attract other sorts of players other than bots, OR people who know how to play a certain bot that could then beat the bot. That's the only problem with a bot, they can't work out if someone is trying to push you off a hand or not..

As for Egor or someone starting a casino and out right offering botting - how this would work I don't know lol. bot vs bot = no winners?


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: uplander on March 14, 2011, 09:06:50 PM
True, but without rake even bot v bot poker can become profitable, if your profile is better than everyone elses.

A lot of pros complain that it is very hard to find a 9-max table, at 100nl or higher, where there aren't already 7 regs trying to bust 1 or 2 fish. Not all regs are created equal. But, generally the difference between 2 regs is small so the rake means that the better reg can't profitably play against the slightly less able reg.

Taking rake out of the game would make it interesting again. If you have even a slight edge, there is less inclination to spend most of your time bum-hunting.

If you sweat a mid stakes game, often the table immediately breaks up when the poor player gets up and leaves.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: uplander on March 14, 2011, 09:42:11 PM
Boost, a lot of players are happy playing against bots (or at least claim to be). Bots don't adjust to hyper aggression. If you know there is a bot in the seat to your right, you can 3-bet air and fold to a 4-bet profitably if nobody else at the table is smart enough to exploit you when you are doing it.

Rake free poker and bot-friendly rooms are two entirely different issues though. Sorry, if I am going off topic. Egor, I hope the article gets you some more sales.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Doomtrain on March 14, 2011, 09:44:26 PM
Lol at costs would be high, i think your sinking a mil before you even get online.

On the other hand, a open source poker program could be built for very little accross the web and utilize some kind of online credit chip rather than $.

However as egor says, how do you attract the fish with no money for advertising and nobody really in charge or ownership of anything.

Plus obviously being open source theres huge security issues on the table, not to mention the possibility of the credit chip going bankrupt or something and people not being able to cash their money back out.

Its a field a million miles outside of anything i am capable of but i like your idea if you have got a spare mil ;D


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: uplander on March 14, 2011, 11:02:40 PM
As I've said, costs would be high.

What do you think the cost would be, without marketing though? Getting a secure site up there and hosting it for a year. For arguments sake, lets say that we underestimated how many poor players realised how much the rake was hurting them. I'm a bad player and I understand it.

Lets say that, against all odds, the site just became successful by word of mouth and that, in a short time, there was an average of 500 players playing at any one time. A mixture of botters, good regs and poor players. The site then continued to grow.

Yes, I know thats somewhat optimistic, but could the site be created for £50,000-£100,000?*

*This is just idle speculation, not a business plan!





Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Egor on March 15, 2011, 12:38:10 AM
Yes you can start a site for that. You need a stand-alone room, not a skin, in order to welcome bots. Most of the money that gets sunk into these operations is in the marketing.

Getting back to the Full Tilt statement. Almost sounds like they are saying, we know about a lot of bots playing and we let all the piece of junk losing bots play on the site all they want, we only ban the goods ones, i.e. the shanky bots.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Doomtrain on March 15, 2011, 12:52:55 AM
Have you not considered making your own site egor?

It would seem a way more attractive proposition for bot purchasers to be garenteed a site they could play on always rather than always be at some sort of varying risk.

You wouldnt have to be rakefree, simply half of the standard rake would be hugely attractive.
Probs the best way to keep most of the pros out would be to limit tables to the same amount as the bot (6) most hard grinders i know wouldnt boot up for less than 16 never mind change rooms.

There are many inferior bots out there that would surely bring a ton of liquidity in short order?

Rather than looking to build a new site, buying a thrown out one would probs be a much better place to start (way cheaper and save months) or perhaps look at picking up a halfway done failure from someone who started and ran out of funds?

Huge investment though.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Egor on March 15, 2011, 01:05:02 AM
I am hoping somebody who is properly prepared for the project (both financially and with the available manpower to run it) will see the potential in such an idea someday soon. We have had some talks with a few people who seemed serious about it, but apparently this is easier said than done. As mentioned a skin won't work, it has to be a brand new indpendent room starting from scratch. I imagine it is quite a project.

If it succeeds it could revolutionize online poker. New things like this are always needed, especially in this industry. I think they have now invented about all the variations within the game itself that can be done. A bot-war kind of a website could be the next big thing. For one thing I could finally get the guys who like to brag that they could beat the Doodle to put their money where their mouth is.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Doomtrain on March 15, 2011, 01:19:51 AM
Ye sure it would take a lot of people a lot of funds and a lot of drive to have any chance.

I would say ask full tilt but thier support is a joke ;D


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: uplander on March 15, 2011, 02:19:47 AM
Doom, I don't think you want to keep anyone out if you are running a poker room, unless you just want it to be bot v bot. A 100nl grinder may well have a 5-figure bankroll. 100 of those gives you $1million in the bank, getting interest and interest rates are likely to rise significantly soon.

In fact, I can see merit in fundamentally altering the table graphics to suit multi-tablers. If you look at a typical poker window, most of the room is wasted space, avatars, etc. Neither bot users or grinders have much interest in how pretty the table looks.  

I think all the relevant data+cards could fit into a 250x250 window, or a rectangle that was no bigger. That would enable 16-tabling without overlap. In fact that would still leave a large strip of space on the screen.

I like the idea of being able to move your mouse-pointer over any player and highly detailed hud-type stats appearing in that unused strip. That would make it fair for everyone. I think it's a bit rich when players with HUDs complain about bots as being unfair, yet they have no problem using a HUD to help them fleece new players who haven't even heard of HUDs and who have no idea of the disadvantage they are at by not using them.

I bet there would be lag problems with that though (the time it would take the stats to appear on screen when you moved the mouse-pointer over a player) and it would cost a lot to build. I'm convinced that smaller and more compact poker windows would be a good step forward though.



Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Boost on March 15, 2011, 09:25:42 PM
I really couldn't see how a poker room dedicated to or welcoming bots (especially a new room) being successful in the slightest.

It's like if a big site like poker stars, full tilt decided on welcoming bots. The traffic would just drop massively and it would be just a bot fest and totally unprofitable to users of bots.. You might well get the odd human player in but for the most part a human player who isn't a very good player and recreational certainly wouldn't like the idea of playing vs a robot.

Cake poker is another "big" if you can call it big, website for poker and the traffic is dreadful as it is. Imagine them welcoming bots? This would kill cake poker off completely.

Now trying to even think of the idea of someone creating a new room, I couldn't even see it lifting off to be honest.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: Doomtrain on March 15, 2011, 09:40:21 PM
Get outa here man boost lol, bodog did just that for a long time and as soon as they stopped partially supporting the use of them their traffic fell off a cliff.
Thats not speculation its fact.


Your probs right from a short term rake point of view uplander, but im thinking of terms of being attractive to fish for long term retention of recreational users. You can clip a sheep his whole life and he will like it but once you skin him hes done. This is pretty much how i look at fish on a poker table, if they lose slowly they are happy because they have good value entertainment, but if it becomes more costly than a meal at the pub because of mass tabling pros they quickly decide to take thier disposible income to the pub instead because its become cheaper.
Looking at different things from a different point of view.


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: PokerFox12 on March 17, 2011, 03:15:05 PM
The bot would get into the next level...if it could discuss with pt3 or hem database, then it would be possible to use different profiles against different players. This is the bots future...

-TheRealPlayer


Title: Re: Poker Bots Make The News
Post by: uplander on March 17, 2011, 04:46:02 PM
I think the thread is getting a bit multi-way! It began about a newspaper article. Now it encompasses rake free poker, bot-friendly rooms and now the many-times-discussed nirvana of HUD reading bots.

Doom, good point about keeping poor players interested.

I think the idea of rake free poker with a 10% tax on withdrawals has some merit, though.